Hey and welcome to another edition of Founder to Founder 👋

Today’s post is a special one and it features my friend Ethan Smith. He’s the Founder and CEO of Graphite, a leading growth agency focused on SEO and AI optimization working with companies like Notion, Calm, and Webflow.

In the last edition we talked about how OpenPhone uses SEO to get our early growth motion going. But in the past 8 years, SEO has become a different beast, so I wanted to have an SEO expert share about what to do in 2025.

Ethan and I met in late 2017 when OpenPhone was in beta and Mahyar and I were just starting to get our first beta users. I credit Ethan for sparking what became my ongoing obsession with content and SEO.

I can’t tell you how many times the Google algorithm changes made our content rank better or worse. And AI in search results means more searches aren’t leading to clicks.

So while there’s enough pessimism about SEO online—especially with the viral piece about HubSpot losing nearly 75-80% of their traffic due to Google's algorithm changes and shifting search trends—I thought there’s no better person to consult with than Ethan.

So I asked him to hop on a call and talk about what a startup in 2025 should do with all the changes going on.

📒 DEEP DIVE

SEO still works. The playbook has just changed.

Sitting down with Ethan Smith to learn what companies should be doing in 2025

When Ethan and I sat down to talk, I wanted to get beyond the usual SEO advice. After all, this is a founder who's helped companies like Robinhood establish topical authority in entirely new areas. What I found is that SEO isn't as complicated as many make it out to be.

In fact, Ethan believes most companies are wasting their resources on the wrong things. There's a simpler, more focused approach that works in today's search environment—whether that's Google or the newer AI search tools.

Here are the main takeaways from our call:

1) Topical authority is everything

Stop obsessing over individual keywords. Google doesn't care if your article is perfectly keyword-optimized.

What does Google care about? Topical authority.

They want to surface content from companies that are genuine experts on the subjects they cover. Think about it like this: Who are you more likely to trust—someone who's written one blog post about a topic, or someone who's created a whole library of valuable resources?

Google's algorithm thinks the same way.

Ethan explained that smaller companies should start by focusing on the "small circle of topics they have authority for"—the areas where they can truly shine. As you grow and build more expertise, you can gradually expand into related areas.

This resonated so much with our early days at OpenPhone. We became the go-to resource for anything phone numbers-related (though we do a lot more than just provide numbers for folks). By focusing on that niche, we built up our topical authority and started ranking for relevant searches. We then expanded from there and grew our authority one topic at a time.

2) SEO best practices apply to AI search too

This was a huge "aha" moment for me. I have been wondering how all these new AI search tools (ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, etc.) would impact SEO. And according to Ethan, the core principles still apply.

If you're doing SEO right, you're already starting to optimize for these new platforms. You don’t have to learn a whole new set of rules, just focus on mastering the fundamentals and applying them across the board.

However, there are some nuances to consider.

Users often have different types of questions depending on the search engine. So, we may see different chat behavior for ChatGPT (an AI chat product) vs. Perplexity (an AI search product). Because of this, you should make sure your content answers questions that are unique to each AI surface. Additionally, each new AI surface will use different citations to inform the answer. So, you should focus your citation outreach efforts specifically to each AI surface.

After this, start understanding the nuances of each AI surface like ChatGPT and Perplexity, then tailor your content to these chat surfaces by building on the base you’ve established with your SEO work.

This is great news because it means all the effort you're putting into creating high-quality, user-focused content is going to pay off, no matter where people are searching—you just need to make some strategic adjustments for each platform.

3) UGC is more and more important than ever + influencer marketing is something not to sleep on

Ethan emphasized the growing importance of user-generated content (UGC) in the age of AI search. Platforms like Reddit, Quora, and YouTube are goldmines for valuable insights and genuine feedback.

By being present on these platforms, you're not only getting your product in front of potential customers, but also feeding the AI search engines with the kind of authentic content they crave.

AI is all about understanding user sentiment and real-world experiences. Where better to find that than in online communities?

For example, I recently saw this answer from Grok (X’s AI chatbot) mentioning OpenPhone. By nurturing and engaging with customers on X, we get the benefit of being suggested by their AI assistant.

This ties in perfectly with influencer marketing. If you have unique expertise, become an influencer yourself. Share your knowledge, build a following, and create standout content.

If that's not your strength, partner with influencers who already have an engaged audience. They can help amplify your message and reach a wider audience.

As Ethan put it:

4) 90-95% of SEO efforts are a waste of time

This one really surprised me as someone obsessed with SEO. Ethan shared a study that found that only 5% of a website's landing pages drive almost all the traffic.

That means most of the work people are doing on SEO is essentially a waste of time.

The key takeaway here is to focus on what actually moves the needle.

What's not a waste of time? According to Ethan, it's not SEO audits, churning out AI-generated content, or obsessing over cost reduction.

What does matter is thinking in terms of topics, not just keywords, creating comprehensive content that answers all the follow-up questions, building connections with backlinks, and focusing on UX.

5) Stop asking AI to do everything—ask for ideas instead

Everyone's using AI these days, but are they using it effectively?

AI tools are beyond helpful, we all know that. But for SEO they might hurt more than help. Ethan gave me one major rule: Never use AI to write your content.

Google (and other search engines) don't want AI-generated content. They want human expertise and original thought.

But that doesn't mean AI is useless for content marketers. Far from it! AI is a fantastic tool for ideation and strategy.

Ethan shared a very cool idea for using ChatGPT (and used OpenPhone as an example).

Let me show you how he did this step-by-step:

Step 1 - Ask it for less obvious use cases for your product. These might be use cases that you haven’t thought of or haven’t prioritized creating content for. This prompt uncovers some really interesting content opportunities.

Step 2 - Ask "Create a table that lists the less obvious use cases of [your product]. In the second column, include a search query for each of these use cases.”

Step 3 - Dig deeper into promising use cases to figure out what topic would make a comprehensive piece of content.

For example, Ethan asked about the Airbnb host journey and discovered topics like "understanding Airbnb's policies about phone communication" – perfect for targeting Airbnb hosts who might need a virtual phone solution.

Step 3 - Dig deeper into promising use cases to figure out what topic would make a comprehensive piece of content.

For example, Ethan asked about the Airbnb host journey and discovered topics like "understanding Airbnb's policies about phone communication" – perfect for targeting Airbnb hosts who might need a virtual phone solution.

The wrap-up

SEO isn't dead in 2025. It’s far from it. But it has changed a lot.

What's clear from my conversation with Ethan is that you need to be thoughtful about how you approach content. Focus on topics where you can genuinely add value, build expertise, and use AI as a thought partner (not a replacement for human expertise).

For startups just beginning their SEO journey today, here’s Ethan’s advice: start small, pick topics where you can be the definitive resource, create genuinely useful content, and be patient.

Until next time!

Daryna